Sacred Rage: Heidi Sieck
Today, we are talking with Chief Empowerment Officer, Heidi Sieck. She is the founder of #VOTEPROCHOICE, a long-time advocate for reproductive rights, and a bad-ass feminist. And when she is not getting pro-choice candidates elected or lobbying Congress, she is throwing down alongside me on the street, in the Capitol, at the Supreme Court or wherever we are needed. She’s here with us today to help us make sense of the recent abortion bans that are sweeping our nation and take back our rights.
READ: The Criminalization of Women’s Bodies is All About Conservative Male Power
DO: Top 10 Things To Do To Save Reproductive Rights in America
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More about this episode:
In this episode, Heidi reminds us that the recent abortion bans sweeping our nation are nothing new. States have been rolling back reproductive rights and controlling women’s bodies for over three decades.
But we are, in fact, a pro-choice nation with 70% of Americans in favor of abortion rights. We just need to get organized and get engaged. And like Elizabeth Warren, Heidi’s got a plan.
In a recent article, Laurie Penny wrote “This is not a moment to mince words. This is a moment for moral clarity. Women’s personhood is not conditional. Women’s sexuality is not shameful. The only shameful thing, the only thing that no citizen who believes even fractionally in freedom should tolerate, is a world in which women are treated like things.”
Our rage is righteous and our fight is strategic. And we will not go back. We will tell our stories, take the streets, vote them out and do whatever it takes to protect our bodies and preserve our humanity. Because the choice to show up for one another, is perhaps the most sacred choice of all. Check it out.
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+ Read Transcript
Heidi Sieck: ... the witch trials, all of that. That was something that's been happening for thousands and thousands of years and millions and millions of women have died as a result of just expressing themselves and being who they are and expressing their connection to creation and creative energy. So the aspect of misogyny and suppression underlies our culture.
Kerri Kelly: Welcome to CTZN Podcast. I'm Kerri Kelly. Today we're talking with the democracy goddess herself, Heidi Sieck. She's the founder of #VOTEPROCHOICE, longtime advocate for reproductive rights, and a badass feminist. And when she's not getting pro-choice candidates elected or lobbying Congress, she's throwing down alongside me on the street, in the Capitol, at the Supreme Court, or wherever we are needed. She's here with us today to help us make sense of the recent abortion bans that are sweeping our nation.
Kerri Kelly: Heidi reminds us that this is nothing new. States have been rolling back reproductive rights and controlling women's bodies for over three decades. But we are, in fact, a pro-choice nation, with over 70% of Americans in favor of abortion rights. We just need to get organized and get engaged. And like Elizabeth Warren, Heidi's got a plan.
Kerri Kelly: In a recent article, Laurie Penny wrote, "This is not a moment to mince words. This is a moment for moral clarity. Women's personhood is not conditional. Women's sexuality is not shameful. The only shameful thing, the only thing that no citizen who believes even fractionally in freedom should tolerate, is a world in which women are treated like things."
We will not tolerate that world, and with Heidi in charge, we just might win. Check it out.
Kerri Kelly: Welcome, Heidi Sieck. I'm so glad you're here.
Heidi Sieck: Hello, Kerri Kelly.
Kerri Kelly: Not just because you're my favorite person on the planet, because you are. But also because you're the person I go to when I get really scared about what's happening in our country. Whether that's an election or what's happening right now with all of these state rollbacks of abortion rights. And so I'm so grateful that you're here to help us make sense of this moment and to tell us what the fuck to do, because we're ready to do the thing. So welcome.
Heidi Sieck: Thank you.
Kerri Kelly: Is that the most intense welcome ever?
Heidi Sieck: Thank you.
Kerri Kelly: Heidi, welcome to CTZN Podcast. Please save us.
Heidi Sieck: Well, I'm happy to be here.
Kerri Kelly: Well, look, I know we are clearly in a moment right now around abortion and reproductive rights. And for as long as I have known you, you have devoted your life, your career, your 30-year career, your rage, your fury, to fight relentlessly against what Rebecca Traister describes as, "the steady, merciless, punitive erosion of reproductive rights." And I've just read your blog today and I know that you basically said in your blog, "Where have you been?" All of you people getting enraged, this has been happening for a really long time. It's been brewing in our country for many decades, and so I'd love for you to tell us about your journey and what you've witnessed up until this point.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. It's been a journey, there's no doubt about it. What's so curious about where we are right now, as I wrote in the post that you're referring to, is so many people are infuriated, angry, scared, about this Alabama abortion ban that was recently passed and signed into law, and the additional Georgia six-week ban, and all the other pieces of legislation that we're seeing being passed and enacted across the country right now. What's so curious about it is that this has been happening for many, many decades, and that is what I feel both grateful for, but also a deep sense of responsibility and contemplation about, really.
Serendipitously, when I was a kid ... I grew up in Nebraska, and by nature of mentorship, my first job that I got right out of high school when I went to college was at Planned Parenthood in Nebraska. And it was around 1991 where I was both working at Planned Parenthood and I was working in the Nebraska State Unicameral as a legislative page and a staffer to the Health and Human Services Committee, and the first partial birth abortion ban was introduced in Nebraska. And because I'd had the context of working in Planned Parenthood and I was listening to the introduction of this bill, I was really struck by the complete disparate stories between what I saw of the women who were coming to Planned Parenthood to take care of themselves, to get reproductive healthcare services, to get birth control, to decide what they wanted to do with their bodies, to create trajectories of choice for their pregnancies, versus what the story of what this legislature was talking about, which was actually a medical procedure that didn't exist, and these really graphic stories of what happens in later term abortion that I knew wasn't true.
This was 1991 and that was the beginning. Because we knew at the time that that was when the conservative infrastructure was really starting to invest money into making the issue of abortion a organizing principle for a small group of people in the Republican Party to make sure that they stayed with the party. And they have been honing their strategy ever since. And so for me, it's been a unique journey of being ... I think I said this the other day. I don't know if this is an appropriate analogy, but the Forrest Gump of repro. Because fast forward to 2011 and I'm working in Ohio on a campaign and I was working with NARAL Pro-Choice Ohio and working at an abortion clinic in Cleveland, and a week after we had reelected President Obama, the Ohio State Legislature called a special election to consider the first so-called "heartbeat bill," which was a legislative strategy to try to reduce the concept of viability to create an abortion ban, essentially, in the country. They were-
Kerri Kelly: A country abortion ban.
Heidi Sieck: They were testing that strategy. And again, I'm sitting in a state capitol in Ohio thinking, "What the hell is going on?" And over the course of the last 30 years, because of these serendipities of my life, I've been watching the evolution of these bills.
Kerri Kelly: And the erosion of our rights.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. And it's been happening as a slow boil for the last 30 years. Since the moment Roe v. Wade was decided in 1973, there has always been an attempt to chip away at our access to reproductive healthcare services. And what I want folks to really understand, this was a focused strategy, really generated out of the Reagan years, of trying to keep a small minority of people connected and activated into the Republican Party, period.
Kerri Kelly: When you say small minority, what you mean is that we're really a pro-choice nation.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. Yes. That's what is so frustrating about all of this, is that over 70% of Americans do believe that there should be access to abortion, specifically, that is safe, legal, accessible, in their communities, and respectful, without shame. This includes Republicans, Democrats, Independents, and that has been growing. That number has been growing. And so what's really frustrating for me is that the investment in this anti-choice minority group of people has created a perspective that this is actually a polarizing issue, that it is ... somehow we're half and half, that it's contentious, it's controversial.
Kerri Kelly: It's a wedge.
Heidi Sieck: But the reality is that we, in fact, human beings, the people of America, do have an experience of desiring reproductive freedom and bodily autonomy, and that's across the board. We have to really understand that the anti-choice minority and investments that they've made have been extremely effective and strategic in creating a false narrative of what's really the truth. What I hope that we can really have a conversation about now in this country is, what is the truth of our lives? What is the truth about reproductive freedom for our families and ourselves? And what's really going on here?
I'm grateful for folks starting to wake up, and I'm sorry that it has to be such an extreme situation, because it is an extreme situation. And we've evolved to a very dire situation, both in terms of our Constitutional situation, but also in the way that we've let this issue be overtaken by a group of people that don't actually represent who we are as a people.
Kerri Kelly: Which seems to be a theme in our country, that we've been asleep at the wheel, right? And since 2016, nothing new is happening. The veil has been lifted and we're actually finally seeing it and being, I think, shook to wokeness. That this is happening and this has been happening, and as you just mentioned, a lot of this strategy has been seeded over time and I think what we're just seeing is now the snowball effect. And it is really a snowball, right? We're seeing the most aggressive abortion bans since Roe, which it feels like it's sweeping the states like a contagion, quite frankly. Georgia, Alabama, Missouri, Ohio. I think eight states in total have passed bills in 2019 so far. Is that right? Is it eight or nine?
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. But there's also been 30 restrictive bills that have passed in the last year. These are not new. There's been thousands. Thousands that have been introduced, enacted in one House or another. Some have been actually passed. These include restrictions like mandatory ultrasounds, waiting periods, just making it more difficult for people to access reproductive healthcare services. It's been happening over the past couple of decades, so for me it's-
Kerri Kelly: How many states have some kind of restriction that's sort of waiting on Roe?
Heidi Sieck: Right. So the scariest states are six states ... and it used to be five, and now we've had one more pass what are called trigger laws, meaning they're pieces of legislation that are sitting on the books in the states, that if Roe is overturned, abortion will be immediately illegal and there are very, very punitive punishment to people ... women, people who provide abortions in those states. The one that's the scariest to me is a trigger law that was passed in 2006 ... that's 2006 ... in Louisiana, which says ten days after Roe v. Wade is overturned, abortion will become illegal in Louisiana. The punishment is a felony conviction to someone providing an abortion or assisting an abortion that includes a $100,000 fine and 10-year mandatory hard labor camp. And the state legislature in Louisiana, in 2006, removed the exception for rape or incest that was part of the templated legislation that had been provided by the conservative infrastructure. So that has been on the books for 13 years.
Kerri Kelly: And now we're seeing more of those kinds of bills actually pass.
Heidi Sieck: Correct.
Kerri Kelly: You actually broke this down brilliantly in your blog/manifesto. For those of you that are listening, this is going to be included. It'll be clickable in the podcast. But I just want to run through this list that you gave us, because it really does demonstrate a very thought through strategy over time to prepare states for the overturn of Roe v. Wade.
Kerri Kelly: So we have nine states that have retained their unenforced pre-Roe abortion bans. We have the six states that you just mentioned that have post-Roe laws to ban abortions that would be triggered the moment Roe is overturned. Five states have unconstitutional post-Roe restrictions that are currently blocked by courts but could be brought back in effect if Roe is in fact overturned. Seven states have laws that express the intent to restrict the right to legal abortion to the maximum extent permitted by US Supreme Court in the absence of Roe. And then you have this other bullet on here which blew my mind, which is that women in the US are currently serving time in jail for inducing miscarriages.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. There's a story of a woman named Purvi Patel. She was 26 years old and I think she was 23, 24 weeks pregnant, induced a miscarriage in Indiana. She was charged with murder. She served 18 months in jail with a 20-year sentence, and that was courtesy of Governor Mike Pence and the state legislature of Indiana. And I think one of the things that's most important to understand is that that happened in 2016 in the United States of America.
Kerri Kelly: This isn't just maybe possibly in the future. This is already happened.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah, this happened and it is happening. And so when we think about the structure of our political system, this is not new. So that's something to think about. I think the most important point is that 57% of the country currently lives in a state that's hostile or not supportive of their reproductive freedom. So that means that depending on where-
Kerri Kelly: Even though 70% of Americans believe in abortion rights.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. So that means depending on where you live ... so much is contingent upon your zip code. Depending on where you live, you may or may not have reproductive freedom now. That's where we see these total abortion bans, we see these six-week bans. And the fact of the matter is, women in these particular states ... or I should also say ... we want to include our transgender people in this conversation because access to reproductive freedom and health services are so important to trans people ... that access to families, it's detrimentally limited in our country currently.
Kerri Kelly: And yet abortion is still legal.
Heidi Sieck: Well, it's constitutionally protected.
Kerri Kelly: So can you explain the difference between the two? Because I do think people are getting confused between where it stands. And then I also would be curious around, like, how do people find out, based on their zip code, what the law is in fact?
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. We know that Roe v. Wade does constitutionally protect abortion, but subsequent Supreme Court decisions, particularly Casey v. Planned Parenthood decided in 1992, does allow for certain limitations, and that's been really what's opened the floodgates for states to put limitations on access and what the costs-
Kerri Kelly: And they deferred those limitations to states.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. And so lots of state legislatures have been creating barriers to access. Those waiting periods, requiring an abortion clinic to have certain levels of ... like be at the standard of a surgery center, that require them to shut down, to require doctors to have admitting privileges, it's all just a strategy to limit access and that's been happening since 1992, actually. So access has been limited in these states, and it's been a state issue.
Now that Roe v. Wade is at risk ... and what we need to understand is this abortion ban in Alabama was never intended to be implemented. Never. And the six-week ban in Georgia and the other bans have never intended to be implemented because they are unconstitutional on their face, under the context of Roe. So these were strategies by the anti-choice minority infrastructure to directly try to overturn Roe in the Supreme Court. They are emboldened by the fact that we have now a Supreme Court ... after the confirmation of the political operative Brett Kavanaugh ... a Supreme Court that is amenable to the overturn of Roe v. Wade. So the acceleration of these pieces of legislation are a strategy to-
Kerri Kelly: To force a case.
Heidi Sieck: To force a case to the Supreme Court. Now here's the really scary part. There are already 20 cases that are making their way through the federal court systems to be considered to reach a place where they can be considered by the Supreme Court. I say this very respectfully and also without any kind of filter, that it is very likely that we will lose Roe v. Wade possibly soon, but probably by next June.
Kerri Kelly: Because of the pipeline of cases that are in line?
Heidi Sieck: And the fact that Brett Kavanaugh is sitting on the Court. A lot of folks in the reproductive rights movement aren't willing to make that statement so clearly, and a lot of folks don't want to believe it's true. They want to say things like, "Oh, John Roberts will never allow that to happen," or, "They won't do it in 2020," or, "That's just not possible," or they'll just chip away. But there's some indications that give us quite a prediction that that is in fact the strategy. So we really have to take a moment-
Kerri Kelly: That seems real to me.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. We have to take a moment and just be like, "Okay. This is really happening." And I say this from a place of reverence, as a person that's been watching the unfolding of this system for 30 years in a place from inside the system and inside communities that haven't had access and watching these state legislatures, on the floor of these state legislatures, and also being present for the confirmation of Brett Kavanaugh. You and I were there together. We knew what we were fighting for.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah, that's why this doesn't surprise me. It felt like this was at stake when we laid our bodies down on the floor of the Hart Building.
Heidi Sieck: That's right.
Kerri Kelly: And when we cried our eyes out when he was confirmed.
Heidi Sieck: That's right.
Kerri Kelly: We knew that this was hanging in the balance. Not just our dignity, but actually control of our bodies.
Heidi Sieck: That's right. And it was so much more than his allegations of sexual assault from Dr. Ford. It was that we knew ... those of us who'd been watching the system and marginalized people and people who did live in places that didn't have access to reproductive healthcare services and had seen the transformation of our access over the course of the past few decades ... we all showed up at the Senate Judiciary Committee to protest this because we were expressing our lived experience. And this was before we even knew about the sexual assault allegations of this man.
I think what was so frustrating is that we could see it. Just that first day, I remember when I walked into the Senate Judiciary Committee hearing, I was the first member of the public that walked in that room that day and I got that first ticket and I was the third person to get arrested, and we walked in and I saw Chairman Grassley and I saw Jeff Sessions and I saw Brett Kavanaugh walk in and I saw this small group of men who were hell bent on coalescing power and taking our rights away. And surrounding them were all the women, and the senators that were there, the women senators, and the people in the room, and the press. And none of us wanted what they were determined to do, but they were determined to win and I knew that it was an uphill battle for us and that we would have to do whatever it takes. And that's why we fought so hard, and that's why we're where we are.
Kerri Kelly: So we deserve to be outraged about what's happening at the state level, but we really need to keep our eye on the prize, right. We really need to understand that these are tactics, to force a decision on Roe, and so what does that mean, how do we as a movement, prepare ourselves for defending Roe, for what's coming?
Heidi Sieck: Yeah, that's a deep question. Of course, in 2016, I brought all of my passion and fury together to create the platform that I am so honored to be co-founder of, which is VOTEPROCHOICE. So my focus obviously is, based on the strategy that I am hopeful will help. Which is, we have to honor the fact that Roe is at stake, we have to honor the fact that the contagion as you said, has happened in the States. We also have to honor those stories of women like Purvi Patel who came up against elected offices like Sheriff or Coroner, or public defender or district attorney or a judge, that thought it was appropriate for her to be put into jail, for making a decision about how to decide the trajectory of her future. That we have to honor the fact that the work is actually in local and state elected offices. That these are the people that have decided to make these decisions for us, and they are representing the minority people. So for me, I believe, our focus has to be on electing the right people, pro choice people everywhere.
Heidi Sieck: And the joy of it, this is the joy and the hope of it, is that because we are a pro choice nation, because people are waking up, because Republican women and independent women and even all the men are realizing that this is crazy, what's happening, legally and legislatively. That folks are open to electing pro choice candidates in any election everywhere. From school board to Senate, from PTA to president, we all have to be focusing on those elections.
Kerri Kelly: And your VOTEPROCHOICE guide is just the most, I think badass voters’ guide out there. It runs all the way down the ballot, and it tells you everything you need to know about every elected office possible, I don't know how you pulled that off, but it is one of the most, I think thorough resources out there. For not just choosing a ballot, but for actually making really responsible choices, all the way down the ballot and we're not seeing the impact of actually not voting down the ballot, whether it's because we don't know or we're too busy or it's inconvenient or we're conflicted, we're paying the price now. And Stacey Abrams even just said recently that, "Bad policies like the forced pregnancy bill, is a direct result of voter suppression." She was talking about Georgia. And I'm thinking, if you look at all of the states that are passing these bills right, some of them have the highest rates of voter suppression, and some of them have the lowest rates by the way, of women empower.
Heidi Sieck: Yes and here's what we have to realize. Again, going back to my experience in Nebraska, the anti-choice minority and the conservative movement have invested in these races, in leadership development, pipeline development, and elections at the local level for decades. They've been doing this for roughly 30 years, about the time I started, serendipitously. And so we are up against ... we're behind, we're behind in our investment. But what's great is that, that we have actually all the resource, we have the humans, we have the people, we have the experiences. One in four women will choose to terminate a pregnancy, two thirds of those are mothers, that doesn't matter what's your political affiliation is. So we have all the opportunity to be able to leverage these situations and these resources into success.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah, and we are seeing some good news right? We're seeing good news out of Oregon, we're seeing good news out of Maine, we're seeing good news out of Vermont, we're seeing good news out of Nevada, like the female run legislature, like female run states are actually in fact, turning out really progressive bills.
Heidi Sieck: Totally, and that's what so important. So let's get super strategic now. So everybody's thinking about 2020 and they're all distracted by the thousands of candidates that seem to be running.
Kerri Kelly: The five thousand presidential candidates.
Heidi Sieck: And it's nice, because-
Kerri Kelly: I think 20 more just signed up today.
Heidi Sieck: I know. It's nice because all of these candidates are talking about absolutely everything we need to talk about, because they're all trying to find different places to talk about whatever issues that they can differentiate themselves from. We've got Cory Booker really calling on men to become repro justice advocates and we've got Elizabeth Warren outlining a plan on reproductive rights-
Kerri Kelly: She's got a plan.
Heidi Sieck: She has got a great plan. We've got Kirsten Gillibrand, here's our righteous feminist, she's doing her thing and it's great. You got Pete Buttigieg who is on Fox, making good points about what it means to be an ally, great right, this is great. But guess what? In 2019, there are some critical elections, we've got Kentucky has statewide elections, we've got Louisiana, who has their state legislative elections, we've got Mississippi also, state legislative elections, we got Virginia, which we have to take Virginia, we have to flip the Senate, we got to pass clearly there. It's so exciting, we've got New Jersey, but it's always good to let pro choice champions in New Jersey, sure always good. And you've got thousands and thousands of municipal races happening across the country.
So right now, 2019, there are elections every single week, where we're looking at the Kansas city Missouri City Council races are in a few weeks, we've got Denver happening in a few weeks, we've got Memphis Tennessee is happening next month. It's these critical races that actually don't take a lot of money or a lot of time. And we can have significant impact by diverting some resources to these places, because the pro choice majority is activated-
Kerri Kelly: On the ground.
Heidi Sieck: Our system is not necessarily ready to leverage that power.
Kerri Kelly: Well, the media has some role in that too right? All we see is presidential rhetoric, presidential this, presidential that. When in fact, there are really critical decisions being made-
Heidi Sieck: That's right.
Kerri Kelly: At the local level, that is why we're where we are, right now.
Heidi Sieck: And that's our future, that's where the success can happen, by electing great people and our key is just really allowing people to step into their positions of leadership and supporting that.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah, we're going to take a quick break and be right back with Heidi Sieck. I want to give a special shout out to our community of supporters on Patreon, for making it possible for us to create content that matters for CTZNs who care. CTZN Podcast was designed for truth seekers, bridge builders and emerging activists who are yearning to make a difference. We're not afraid to ask hard questions and have a radical dialogue about politics and patriarchy, white supremacy and worthiness, and we're serious about showing up for one another and taking action for the well being of everyone. But making a good Podcast takes a village and so we're building one on Patreon. By joining our Patreon community for as little as one dollar per month, you get lots of good stuff from us, like radical meditations, community forums and lifestyle content that you can trust. Not only does it keep us going, but it keeps us honest and real and pushing the envelope of courageous conversations, that are independent, transparent and authentic. So check us out on patreon.com/CTZNwell and build with us as we create a culture of wellbeing that works for everyone.
Kerri Kelly: I want to talk about feminine leadership, because I feel like you're going there and you embody it. And after the tragic shooting in Christchurch, we got a glimpse of what that looks like, right with Jacinda Ardern, in the way that she responded with grace and empathy, but also in a way that she was so swift, in enacting action and passing gun control the law, I think, within a month, right. And Hillary Clinton once referred to women as having a responsibility gene, and I think, it's not surprising, right, that women have evolved into that, right, given how women have survived constant subjugation and inferiority, the ways in which we've always been relegated the caregiver, and also the way in which over time we've accumulated so much wisdom and medicine around healing and learning lessons about how to cope. And I feel like that wisdom and that truth, you talked about truth before, is in fact making a come back right.
We are seeing now a real embodiment of feminine leadership in different countries, we're seeing it in the house, we're it at the State level in a lot of different ways. And it does feel like ... and I just mentioned before that, a lot of the states that are in fact passing progressive pro choice legislation, are led by women. Women in legislation, women governors. And so I'm just curious, what is different about feminine ... and I don't want to assume that it's regaled to a women's body, but there is a quality of feminine leadership that feels like is breaking through the patriarchy, relentlessly as you mentioned, sort of like analogous to your journey. I feel like it's the Forest Gump of feminine leadership, it's just trying desperately to break through and it does feel different and I'm just curious, as to what you think that looks like? What do we need to be aspiring to? What do we need to be embodying? How do we support one another? And calling forth, right that kind of leadership that can stand up fiercely to the leadership that we're seeing in the minority leadership that you mentioned, that's in the white patriarchy? That right now occupies so many of the houses of our government.
Heidi Sieck: There are two points that I would like to make, in response to that question. But first of all, do you think we're so old that folks are going to know what the Forest Gump of feminism really means?
Kerri Kelly: I don't know.
Heidi Sieck: Did anybody see that movie anymore? Forest Gump was a movie that Tom Hanks...
Kerri Kelly: And he just coming back.
Heidi Sieck: These really important historical moments and no one really knew his name, but he was there.
Kerri Kelly: And he survived.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah, and it was a critical part in the story of who he was, but also the connections and community that's what I reflect on. That's there's so many people who have these lived experiences and have walked journeys. And our communities that are now stepping into leadership and that's really reflective of your question. So I want to answer your question historically, and then also talk about a certain type of framing for how we move forward. So historically we know, that the subjugation of women has been part of our culture, it's been thousands and thousands of years that sacred feminine or feminine energy has been a source of just oppression, brutality, the inquisition started in 1100, it was basically suppression of feminine, the connection of women to their nature, the witch trials, all of that. That is something that's been happening for thousands and thousands of years and millions and millions of women have died as a result of just expressing themselves. And being who they are, and expressing their connection to creation and creative energy.
So the aspect of misogyny and suppression, underlies our culture and it is very much what we are seeing in as the energy of women rise, as we have after the Hillary Clinton's loss of her rightfully elected presidential campaign. We have the energy of women coming forward and saying, "I am going to take the lead, I'm going to embrace power." We have just new embodiment of authenticity, we have new freedom, we have women standing up and saying, "No." It's what we were doing at the Senate, where we were fighting Kavanaugh, and so this in a lot of ways is a backlash, there's always a backlash. As Rebecca Traister says, "We've been in the backlash for decades and so we have to honor that this is nothing new." And it does have a powerful religious connotation to it. Most of the anti-choice minority is fulled by concepts that the church is continuing to perpetuate. And that is something that has not changed in thousands of years.
Heidi Sieck: So we have to honor that, but also really honor that this time in our lives, and this time in our society is allowing us to see the truth. So how fascinating it is to be in this time in our democracy, where we are seeing what's true. And we are seeing the United States Constitution is being taxed and tested beyond its 229 years, because the Constitution itself was written for white men to control people and power. So it's even being pressed, against feminine energy and leadership. So for me, it is continuing to honor the truth that this is us women, feminine aspects of leadership, collaboration, connection, systemic understanding, connection to nature, connection to community and family, greater understanding of what we might need to heal. It goes completely against the systems of power that are currently in place and it's going to be hard to break. So it feels awful, it feels terrible because it is like putting two operating systems against each other.
So we have to just tell the truth about that and do what we can to hold ourselves in healing space, that's why I so value CTZNWELL’s work and the work here on this Podcast and everything that you have done, because you've connected those two things so deeply. But the second frame that I just want to bring up here is, the concept of reproductive justice. This is a very special frame, that I want to make sure to honor. Because people talk about abortion and they think about reproductive health and reproductive rights and they kind of released what works together, but the concept of reproductive justice was actually developed by black women, women of color in their communities. Where they were saying, "This is not just about abortion rights, this is about creating communities that are healthy, where people can thrive and creating communities that are healthy, where there is clean water and access to education and we have living wages and our bodies are healthy."
And it's much more than just abortion and birth control, while that's a part of it, the concept of reproductive justice is around wellbeing. And so when we use these terms of reproductive rights, health, abortion access, all of that. We want to honor the reproductive justice is actually the frame that is foundational in nature about everything we're talking about.
Kerri Kelly: It's intersectional.
Heidi Sieck: Yes and what I am so frustrated about over the course of the last 30 years or just generally in the reproductive rights movement and the political movement, they've put abortion over in this corner, it's a women's issue or it's those single issue people, or we can't talk about it, or it's some sort of stigmatized thing or there's shame around sex and men don't want to be involved. And it's over here, with the planned parent hoods of the world right, when in fact, the concept of reproductive justice and what I like to use, the term reproductive freedom, is a foundational issue of freedom and it's a foundational issue of economic justice and it's a foundational issue of treating women and trans people as human beings, and allowing us all to live in a thriving way, toward our own personal authentic wellbeing. And that's what we're talking about, how can we bring that truth together.
Kerri Kelly: Mm-hmm, I love that. And I believe in the interdependence of these issues.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah, so we need the Democratic Party, we need every elected office, we need anybody who calls themselves a democrat, we need anyone who calls themselves a progressive, to start owning this. Don't say, "Oh that abortion issue, oh I'm personally pro life." But no, pro life is not a word, it is not. This is about freedom, this is about respect, this is about bringing the concept of reproductive freedom into a foundational issue, this is about really standing for the wellbeing of all the people.
Kerri Kelly: But it does feel and I agree with you. But it does feel, because you were talking about the risk of it being isolated and so while I agree with your framing, it does feel isolated in who's showing up for this issue. I didn't see a lot of men marching yesterday, right and reproductive rights is an everyone issue, right bringing fertility and bringing life into the world or not, impacts the whole family. And so I'm just curious about that, because ... And I remember this with Kavanaugh too, I remember talking to you about this in fact, and being like, "Where's everyone else?" Right, where are all the men that drank beer with Kavanaugh, why aren't they here? All the men in my life, are like, "I'm with you, in solidarity." And I'm like, "No, why aren't you with me here in your body, on your feet, with your first in the air?"
And so I'm curious about that, why this issue continues to be an issue that women only take responsibility for, whether that's birth control or fertility, and then we have to fight for it, we have to demand it for ourselves. We have to tell these gut wrenching stories, every time our dignity is threatened, so that we can prove that we are human, and we're worthy of human rights, so I hear what you're saying and I feel conflicted. Because it does feel like, people have opted out of the conversation, because it doesn't feel like it's their problem.
Heidi Sieck: Right. Well, there's no simple answer to this, obviously we're talking about systemic transformation and men are 100% responsible for all unintended pregnancies.
Kerri Kelly: 100% in fact?
Heidi Sieck: Yeah, so we should take a moment on this and this conversation to call in the men, please join us. You are now part of the reproductive rights movement and reproductive justice movement. Although reproductive justice is a movement of women of color, so use the term accurately.
Kerri Kelly: But come to the table.
Heidi Sieck: Come to us.
Kerri Kelly: Come on in, we need you.
Heidi Sieck: Oh yes.
Kerri Kelly: Because the difference between the 70% of pro choice nation that you're naming and the very few people that are marching and fighting, is just that I think. I'm not saying, it's about men, but I'm saying it's about the people who are showing up and not showing up. It's not enough to be like, "I'm for this."
Heidi Sieck: Right.
Kerri Kelly: So there's a ... we can end like-
Heidi Sieck: Right. Um. So, there's a, we can analyze the problem a little bit and I'm going to go back to the strategy about pro-choice which is a lot of it is about education. How many of us were fully educated about our sexual health and well-being? How many of us across the country. We have abstinence only education in some of these states.
Heidi Sieck: There are so many people and then that actually don't know how, how women's bodies work. We're seeing it in the state legislatures.
Heidi Sieck: These folks don't have a clue-
Kerri Kelly: Yeah, and we-
Heidi Sieck: ... what pregnancy actually is.
Kerri Kelly: And we don't want the culture to teach them.
Heidi Sieck: Oh, my goodness right? And, um, access, all the access to porn is not the way to learn about these things, so, elect pro-choice school board members-
Kerri Kelly: Yeah.
Heidi Sieck: ... that are willing to put policies into place-
Kerri Kelly: That's right.
Heidi Sieck:... to have comprehensive sexuality education, so that kids are actually understanding how bodies work.
Kerri Kelly: That's right.
Heidi Sieck: So. Systemic change for sure.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah.
Heidi Sieck: But we also have to address the symptom as well as the foundation of the disease. Please men, welcome. We welcome you.
Kerri Kelly: (laughs).
Heidi Sieck: You are a part of this, too. We also have to take responsibility for we haven't actually created engagement channels at that much.
Kerri Kelly: And there is a men's pro-choice, right?
Heidi Sieck: Oh, yes, um, Men For Choice has just launching their national work out of Chicago. They're a wonderful organization. There are other organizations too, but they're doing some of the more direct work that's-
Kerri Kelly: The systemic work, yeah.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. So it's really quite extraordinary. I, I'm particularly fond of them. We're partners with them.
Kerri Kelly: Awesome.
Heidi Sieck: Um, but we, we do welcome, we do welcome the men and I will take responsibility for the fact that the reproductive rights movement was really focused on people who prioritized abortion. We were not talking to the masses to pro-choice nation for many, many years, because we were just working with our people that prioritize these issues.
Kerri Kelly: Right.
Heidi Sieck: And so now, we, that's what we ... It's to our detriment that we did this. Um, so, we welcome you now and we are happy to, um, have your partnership and, um, please write lots of checks. (laughs).
Kerri Kelly: (laughs). I just wanted to make sure everyone heard that. Please write lots of checks.
Heidi Sieck: Yes. To your local reproductive justice organizations, Men For Choice, on national funds.
Kerri Kelly: VOTEPROCHOICE.
Heidi Sieck: Local abortion funds, um.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah. Support your local candidates.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah, locals. Yeah, Senate. Get involved in your state legislative candidates, uh, that will change everything.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah. So I want to, um, you mentioned healing on, and I, you know, and we're like an organization that's standing at the intersection of healing and politics so I definitely want to touch on that. Um, and there has been some really powerful healing I think, um, over the last couple years in the Me Too, um, Movement. Thank you Tarana Burke. And the Why I Didn't Report Movement, in the Kavanaugh experience, um, and most recently in You Know Me and the I Am One In Four, in the Shout Your Abortion.
There's been a lot of healing, and it's been hard. You and I were at the Kavanaugh, um, you know, protests together listening to like story, after story, after story, and it was brutal. Um.
Heidi Sieck: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kerri Kelly: For the people telling the stories-
Heidi Sieck: It was terrible.
Kerri Kelly: ... it was hard to hear. Um, it brought up all my shit, um, and I know yours too, and so, um, and so I know there's healing that, and I, and I think it's hard, um, but you know, it does feel like, and, and I had an abortion when I was 20. Um, and I, you know, I'm super transparent, especially on this podcast. I pretty much said all the things, but I, I rarely tell my story about abortion. I, I have rarely spoken it to, um, people, very few people in my life know about it, and I've never really spoken about it publicly until now apparently.
I'm curious about that. Like, what, what is the stigma around abortion that makes it so hard to talk about? And for me, harder to talk about than sexual assault, harder to talk about. I mean, really, then rape, um, is it shame? Is it, um, you know, catholic fucked-up, (laughs).
Heidi Sieck: (laughs).
Kerri Kelly: ... indoctrination? I don't know. I'm just curious what your thoughts are around that. Um, and the ways perhaps that, I know there's an incredible organization called Exhale. They basically built like a culture of community care around people who have had an abortion to really hold space for story.
Do you know this organization?
Heidi Sieck: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kerri Kelly: Yeah. To hold space for story and for support and for community care, like that's basically what they exist for, and I think they're called Exhale Pro-Voice-
Heidi Sieck: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kerri Kelly: ... I think it's the name of, of the organization, and so I'm just curious about like your, your thoughts around why is it so hard ... for people-
Heidi Sieck: Yeah.
Kerri Kelly: ... to come clean around abortion, and then what are the ways in which we can turn towards one another, so that not just so that we can like do whatever healing is needed, but so that we can also like fiercely be advocating for choice? Fiercely be advocating for control of our bodies. Fiercely be advocating for the way in which we, um, make decisions about family planning.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. Yeah these are some deep, deep issues, so, um, it interestingly, like you, this story of our sexual assaults or the experiences that we've had in that regard are somewhat easier to tell, right?
Kerri Kelly: Yeah, what is that?
Heidi Sieck: So we know for sure that there's a lot of cultural shame around sexuality. We know that the suppression of women's sexuality is a thousands of year issue. Um, we know that we don't know anything about our bodies, because our sex ed is terrible-
Kerri Kelly: Right.
Heidi Sieck: ... in this country
Kerri Kelly: We've been objectified.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. This baseline, the baseline is not good, and it doesn't set up authenticity for the feminine physical experience. It just doesn't. And so, one in four women have chosen to terminate a pregnancy before the age of 45, and two-thirds of those are mothers.
Kerri Kelly: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Heidi Sieck: But what's not in there is according to the national institute for reproductive health, 87% of those people do not regret their choice.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah, I don't regret it.
Heidi Sieck: So, what's that about right?
Kerri Kelly: Yeah.
Heidi Sieck: Where is the power in our decision? And it is the suppression of not only our agency, and I think, um, there was an incredible article that was in the ... I think it was the nation this week, written by Laurie Penny.
Kerri Kelly: Oh, my God! The New Republic.
Heidi Sieck: The New Republic.
Kerri Kelly: She's my favorite writer of all time. I just want to say that out loud.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. The criminalization of women's bodies-
Kerri Kelly: Yup, yup.
Heidi Sieck: ... is all about conservative male power, that women as they wake up into their agency, the sexual power, the sexual expression of feminine energy is very, very, um, transformative. You know, if you think about it, it's why the catholic church exists, and it's the largest non-profit organization on the planet, is to suppress the creative power of God. You know?
Heidi Sieck: And what we're talking about is really a relationship of creative energy. And it's really intense. And so for us to own our decisions, to own our freedom, is to completely dis-, disrupt systems of power and so for many it's ... I personally ... I mean, I've had, I also had an abortion. I was 31 years old. I'd just gotten out of a divorce. My life was chaotic. I didn't take my birth control pills on time. I accidentally got pregnant, um, with a partner that I didn't want to be a co-parent with, and I have no regrets whatsoever.
Kerri Kelly: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Heidi Sieck: And I'm so grateful for that decision. I lived in San Francisco. It was totally covered. No problem, I'm so grateful for that decision, that choice, that option. And I decided, not to, that I, it wasn't my path to have children and, and oh, my God, how grateful I am that I've had that option. That I can live a life of vibrancy and service. And so many people depending on where they live do not have that option and I am-
Kerri Kelly: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Heidi Sieck: ... um, and how scary that must be for men in power who know that I'm out there.
Kerri Kelly: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Heidi Sieck: (laughs).
Kerri Kelly: I would be scared of you. I would be scared of you. I think there's something really though like important about what you said around agency and, and the way in which we've been taught to not trust ourselves.
Heidi Sieck: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kerri Kelly: To not trust our bodies.
Heidi Sieck: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kerri Kelly: To not trust ... to not love our bodies.
Heidi Sieck: Well, I think that's exactly right.
Kerri Kelly: Right. And to not trust our choices, and then have that get sort of somehow hooked in right? To a choice that we make for all of the right reasons. Right?
Heidi Sieck: That's right.
Kerri Kelly: For the health and well-being of ourselves and for all of the people that we're in relationship with.
Heidi Sieck: That's right.
Kerri Kelly: And yet that indoctrination of like we're not worthy of making that choice for ourselves and we're seeing that literally replicated in these laws. Like, you don't get to choose.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah.
Kerri Kelly: Um, how undignified-
Heidi Sieck: And what-
Kerri Kelly: ... we believe that. We buy into that.
Heidi Sieck: Totally. And the terrifying nature of the feminine sexual force. That is ... We see it across the country, right? You know, like we were talking earlier, Alabama's laws are actually more suppressive than Saudi Arabia.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah, that's right.
Heidi Sieck: But, there are countries that are wrapping women in burkas.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah.
Heidi Sieck: Why? Because the terrifying power of the feminine sexual creative energy that can be manifested through women identified people, transgender people, and we know that that is just a force of chaos, I suppose, for people in power. And that how important it is for us to create connection to our own community well-being, but also connections with each other.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah.
Heidi Sieck: Like how can I hold space for you to tell your story in a way that's filled with love and authenticity. How can we do that for others? How can we bring men into that conversation and them saying I benefited from my partner choosing to not have another child? Or, thank God my girlfriend ten years ago decided to make a different choice because I was free to pursue my dreams.
Kerri Kelly: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Heidi Sieck: You know, men are, are equally impacted and they benefit from reproductive freedom. And it's, um, it's really, it's really a unique place that we're in right now that we're seeing the transformation of the United States Constitution. We're seeing the transformation of what it means to be a leader, and we're seeing the wounds of our communities and history manifest themselves right now, and I guess the question we have to ask ourselves is what are we capable of holding the space for and what are we going to do about it?
Kerri Kelly: Well, and I think also, you know, I'm thinking about Adrienne Maree Brown and pleasure activism, and how she's really, I think, challenging and inspiring us to reach further. Um, right to like reach for pleasure, and Jill Filipovich wrote a great book called H Spot, which is really about like, you know, just aiming for equality is just so fucking baseline.
Kerri Kelly: Like that's the bare minimum. Like why can't we aim for fulfillment? Why can't we aim for pleasure? You know? An ecstatic feeling and God forbid, we actually did in fact name and clean those things for ourselves, then the patriarchy would really freak out.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. And I think we also have to reclaim God.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah.
Heidi Sieck: And grace.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah.
Heidi Sieck: Okay, because what a lot of what we hear in the anti-abortion and the anti-choice movement is that they're having these struggles with God.
Kerri Kelly: Right.
Heidi Sieck: I was just talking to someone from Planned Parenthood who working on a Mississippi ballot initiative back in 2011, and she said these, these, these people who considered themselves, I'm going to put this in quotes, pro-life, were terrified to vote against a, uh, an abortion ban ballot initiative, because they didn't want God to know.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah, they'd be damned.
Heidi Sieck: And so-
Kerri Kelly: And that's the church.
Heidi Sieck: This is what we're dealing with.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah.
Heidi Sieck: And so, how can we reclaim our connection to ourselves and our own spiritual lives that we may heal and be able to understand what freedom really means too?
Kerri Kelly: Well, I totally resonate with that because you know, I can see how even intellectually I don't buy in to that. I've been indoctrinated into that with all of my catholic upbringing.
Heidi Sieck: (laughs).
Kerri Kelly: So, like what part of me was like, you're going to hell. You know?
Heidi Sieck: Right.
Kerri Kelly: What part of me was like, you know, you know, you, you're wrong, you know? Um, how dare you? And, and what part of me believed that? So, I think that's right. Like how do we reclaim for ourselves, um, a sense of sacred, right? A sense of divinity, a sense of, of, of God and grace that allows us to really be at peace-
Heidi Sieck: Yeah.
Kerri Kelly: ... with all of the decisions we've made and, with, with who we are? You know? Just as are. Exactly as we are? Um, and it's so funny, because, I, I really think that, um, you know, faith plays such a big part in healing. Um, I don't-
Heidi Sieck: Oh, yes.
Kerri Kelly: I don't think we exclude God in that conversation.
Heidi Sieck: No, and how grateful we are for the faith leaders that are part of this movement.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah.
Heidi Sieck: You know, Jesus said the kingdom of God is within you, and the choices that we make for our lives and the way that we relate to each other is from that place of inner love and peace inside of ourselves, and the Bible just says nothing about abortion.
Kerri Kelly: That's right.
Heidi Sieck: It talks about life beginning at breath. And so allowing the consent of, of evangelical religion to own the, the sacred truth of what the trajectory of our lives should be is just an inappropriate use of these really powerful sacred processes.
Kerri Kelly: And it's a lie.
Heidi Sieck: And it's not true.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah.
Heidi Sieck: Back to truth.
Heidi Sieck: It's not true. It's not true. It's not true. So, you know, this is why I definitely appreciate your podcast so much and the work that you do because you allow this space to connect. The United States Constitution with the transformation of our relationship-
Kerri Kelly: Our souls.
Heidi Sieck ... our sexuality and grace.
Kerri Kelly: (laughs). Well listen, it's also why I seek out leadership like yours because I know that you're not just leading from your mind, you're leading from your heart and you are constantly meaning making. Um, around like, what's right, um, what's moral, um, what's good for everyone, what's just, um, what am I responsible for? You know, what are we all responsible for? I mean that's sort of like that ... those are the questions we're asking here and you embody that I think in, in everything you do. Um, all right. Here's my last question for you. And then we're going to wrap it.
Heidi Sieck: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kerri Kelly: And it's just around the idea of sisterhood. Um, and, I think it's a part of healing, and I also think it's the part of how we organize, um, and how we fight, and how we love. (laughs). Um, but, you know, what, how do we, what, what is your vision for how we get together? Um, for how we come together? Um, to, to reclaim, right? Our dignity? To reclaim our rights? Um, to reclaim the White House? (laughs). But for real, like all of that feels connected to me. Right? Um, you know what is your vision for how we work together?
Heidi Sieck: Well, this is going to be hard, because it's going to require us to admit some defeat. So here we are in the, in 2019 facing the, the stress of the United States Constitution, kind of not working anymore, and we've got the stress of the systems of power that we know to be true.
We also have the stress of abortion rights and reproductive freedom in the United States of America, a threat as it never has been before, and so if we are not willing to step back and say wow! Maybe we should rethink our strategy? We've got a real problem.
So, it's going to be tough. And so I think sisterhood means that we are going to have to be present with each other, have some very difficult conversations about what's true and we have to open our arms and our hearts to be in community with each other in a way that is more expansive than ever before. And that might mean that we include into the reproductive, well that has to mean, that we include into the reproductive rights movement other organizations that have not been part of the reproductive rights movement before. So, that includes women who have never engaged, and men who have never engaged in this issue.
It includes really framing reproductive justice and bringing in immigration activists, and environmental activists, and being present for those movements. We're talking the most intersectional engagement ever. So, it's building relationships. It's conversations with people that we might not have ever worked with before. And, it's just being in community and telling the truth. We've got to start telling our stories. And that's what I'm committed to doing. Now, again, strategically, I want us all to be electing down ballot pro-choice champions, particularly women of color in every re-election everywhere as much as possible. I think that's a great strategy. And that's what I'm hoping we're all going to be doing and that's what the work that I do is about. But, you know, I'm also spending a lot of time just having conversations with people and organizers and at organizations that I may have not had a conversation with before.
Kerri Kelly: And I would say that those two things are not separate. Like-
Heidi Sieck: No.
Kerri Kelly: ... your, your strategy to, to reclaim the down ballot feels as spiritual to me (laughs) as any craziest conversation is, um, and I think the, the more we start seeing, like political strategy as spiritual strategy, the better off that we're going to be. These are not isolated or separate. It's not spirit on the side in politics. You know, over here.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah.
Kerri Kelly: It's like these things are, like what, like what's at stake is our spirit, is our humanity. Is our dignity and politics and strategy and community and healing is the way we get there. And so I see all of them kind of, you know.
Heidi Sieck: It's going to take some-
Kerri Kelly: Coagulating.
Heidi Sieck: ... it's going to also take some humility saying, oh wow, we messed that up. So that's -
Kerri Kelly: Yeah. It's a capacity to, to fail.
Heidi Sieck: ... going to be hard. That's going to be hard.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah. I think that's right. Like I think we need to build some muscle around courage, um, the capacity to fail, to know that we're not going to win everything, um, the capacity to grieve the things that don't, aren't working anymore. Yeah.
Heidi Sieck: Or stepping back and saying wow! That didn't work. What do you think I should have done?
Kerri Kelly: Yeah, that's right.
Heidi Sieck: You should have done, or maybe we should re-think our strategy?
Kerri Kelly: Yeah.
Heidi Sieck: Or hey, funders?
Kerri Kelly: Maybe we should like think about-
Heidi Sieck: Yeah.
Kerri Kelly: ... putting money in a different way or a board of directors?
Heidi Sieck: I think we're going to have to go in a different direction. It's going to be hard. It's going to be hard. Curiosity.
Kerri Kelly: Constant curiosity. And I think interrogation. You know?
Heidi Sieck: Yeah.
Kerri Kelly: Well, i just want to say, thank you for the your 30 years, 30, I'm not, I'm not trying to age you.
Heidi Sieck: I'm so old.
Kerri Kelly: (laughs). Ha, ha. But 30 years of service-
Heidi Sieck: (laughs).
Kerri Kelly: ... defending our bodies, defending our uteruses, defending our reproductive rights. Um. Defending humanity and our families, and our community. I mean, that all feels part of that too. And for really, um, like just giving us direction, um, in, and meaning, um, and perspective in where we are and where we need to go. For all the listeners, we're going to include Heidi's manifesto slash blog. (laughs). And all of the vote pro-choice, um, resources that y'all can connect to and benefit from and, um, we're going to hearing a lot more from you I think in the next couple months and certainly leading up to the election as we try to like navigate this path and hopefully retake our country and our, and our soul.
Heidi Sieck: It's going to be quite a journey. I'm delighted to be on it with you.
Kerri Kelly: Thank you. I love you.
Outro: While this podcast is coming to an end, our work in the world is just beginning. This week's Call To Action is to vote Pro-Choice. Download the guide at vote pro-choice dot US. And you can follow Heidi on Instagram at Heidi Speaks.
Special thanks to our producer Trevor Exter and DJ Dreads for the amazing soundtrack. You can check out his music at DJ Dreads dot com. And thank you for being here today. You can stay in the know and engaged by subscribing to our weekly newsletter Well Read at CTZN well dot org.
CTZN podcast is community inspired and crowd sourced. That's how we keep it real. Join our community on Patreon for as little as one dollar per month, so that we can keep doing the work of curating content that matters for CTZNs who care. And don't forget to rate us on Apple podcasts and share the love by telling your friends to check us out. (music)
END
Heidi Sieck: ... the witch trials, all of that. That was something that's been happening for thousands and thousands of years and millions and millions of women have died as a result of just expressing themselves and being who they are and expressing their connection to creation and creative energy. So the aspect of misogyny and suppression underlies our culture.
Speaker 1: CTZN Podcast.
Kerri Kelly: Welcome to CTZN Podcast. I'm Kerri Kelly. Today we're talking with the democracy goddess herself, Heidi Sieck. She's the founder of #VOTEPROCHOICE, longtime advocate for reproductive rights, and a badass feminist. And when she's not getting pro-choice candidates elected or lobbying Congress, she's throwing down alongside me on the street, in the Capitol, at the Supreme Court, or wherever we are needed. She's here with us today to help us make sense of the recent abortion bans that are sweeping our nation.
Kerri Kelly: Heidi reminds us that this is nothing new. States have been rolling back reproductive rights and controlling women's bodies for over three decades. But we are, in fact, a pro-choice nation, with over 70% of Americans in favor of abortion rights. We just need to get organized and get engaged. And like Elizabeth Warren, Heidi's got a plan.
Kerri Kelly: In a recent article Laurie Penny wrote, "This is not a moment to mince words. This is a moment for moral clarity. Women's personhood is not conditional. Women's sexuality is not shameful. The only shameful thing, the only thing that no CTZN who believes even fractionally in freedom should tolerate, is a world in which women are treated like things."
Kerri Kelly: We will not tolerate that world, and with Heidi in charge, we just might win. Check it out.
Kerri Kelly: Welcome, Heidi Sieck. I'm so glad you're here.
Heidi Sieck: Hello, Kerri Kelly.
Kerri Kelly: Not just because you're my favorite person on the planet, because you are. But also because you're the person I go to when I get really scared about what's happening in our country. Whether that's an election or what's happening right now with all of these state rollbacks of abortion rights. And so I'm so grateful that you're here to help us make sense of this moment and to tell us what the fuck to do, because we're ready to do the thing. So welcome.
Heidi Sieck: Thank you.
Kerri Kelly: Is that the most intense welcome ever?
Heidi Sieck: Thank you.
Kerri Kelly: Heidi, welcome to CTZN Podcast. Please save us.
Heidi Sieck: Well, I'm happy to be here.
Kerri Kelly: Well, look, I know we are clearly in a moment right now around abortion and reproductive rights. And for as long as I have known you, you have devoted your life, your career, your 30-year career, your rage, your fury, to fight relentlessly against what Rebecca Traister describes as, "the steady, merciless, punitive erosion of reproductive rights." And I've just read your blog today and I know that you basically said in your blog, "Where have you been?" All of you people getting enraged, this has been happening for a really long time. It's been brewing in our country for many decades, and so I'd love for you to tell us about your journey and what you've witnessed up until this point.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. It's been a journey, there's no doubt about it. What's so curious about where we are right now, as I wrote in the post that you're referring to, is so many people are infuriated, angry, scared, about this Alabama abortion ban that was recently passed and signed into law, and the additional Georgia six-week ban, and all the other pieces of legislation that we're seeing being passed and enacted across the country right now. What's so curious about it is that this has been happening for many, many decades, and that is what I feel both grateful for, but also a deep sense of responsibility and contemplation about, really.
Heidi Sieck: Serendipitously, when I was a kid ... I grew up in Nebraska, and by nature of mentorship, my first job that I got right out of high school when I went to college was at Planned Parenthood in Nebraska. And it was around 1991 where I was both working at Planned Parenthood and I was working in the Nebraska State Unicameral as a legislative page and a staffer to the Health and Human Services Committee, and the first partial birth abortion ban was introduced in Nebraska. And because I'd had the context of working in Planned Parenthood and I was listening to the introduction of this bill, I was really struck by the complete disparate stories between what I saw of the women who were coming to Planned Parenthood to take care of themselves, to get reproductive healthcare services, to get birth control, to decide what they wanted to do with their bodies, to create trajectories of choice for their pregnancies, versus what the story of what this legislature was talking about, which was actually a medical procedure that didn't exist, and these really graphic stories of what happens in later term abortion that I knew wasn't true.
Heidi Sieck: This was 1991 and that was the beginning. Because we knew at the time that that was when the conservative infrastructure was really starting to invest money into making the issue of abortion a organizing principle for a small group of people in the Republican Party to make sure that they stayed with the party. And they have been honing their strategy ever since. And so for me, it's been a unique journey of being ... I think I said this the other day. I don't know if this is an appropriate analogy, but the Forrest Gump of repro. Because fast forward to 2011 and I'm working in Ohio on a campaign and I was working with NARAL Pro-Choice Ohio and working at an abortion clinic in Cleveland, and a week after we had reelected President Obama, the Ohio State Legislature called a special election to consider the first so-called "heartbeat bill," which was a legislative strategy to try to reduce the concept of viability to create an abortion ban, essentially, in the country. They were-
Kerri Kelly: A country abortion ban.
Heidi Sieck: They were testing that strategy. And again, I'm sitting in a state capital in Ohio thinking, "What the hell is going on?" And over the course of the last 30 years, because of these serendipities of my life, I've been watching the evolution of these bills.
Kerri Kelly: And the erosion of our rights.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. And it's been happening as a slow boil for the last 30 years. Since the moment Roe v. Wade was decided in 1973, there has always been an attempt to chip away at our access to reproductive healthcare services. And what I want folks to really understand, this was a focused strategy, really generated out of the Reagan years, of trying to keep a small minority of people connected and activated into the Republican Party, period.
Kerri Kelly: When you say small minority, what you mean is that we're really a pro-choice nation.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. Yes. That's what is so frustrating about all of this, is that over 70% of Americans do believe that there should be access to abortion, specifically, that is safe, legal, accessible, in their communities, and respectful, without shame. This includes Republicans, Democrats, Independents, and that has been growing. That number has been growing. And so what's really frustrating for me is that the investment in this anti-choice minority group of people has created a perspective that this is actually a polarizing issue, that it is ... somehow we're half and half, that it's contentious, it's controversial.
Kerri Kelly: It's a wedge.
Heidi Sieck: But the reality is that we, in fact, human beings, the people of America, do have an experience of desiring reproductive freedom and bodily autonomy, and that's across the board. We have to really understand that the anti-choice minority and investments that they've made have been extremely effective and strategic in creating a false narrative of what's really the truth. What I hope that we can really have a conversation about now in this country is, what is the truth of our lives? What is the truth about reproductive freedom for our families and ourselves? And what's really going on here?
Heidi Sieck: I'm grateful for folks starting to wake up, and I'm sorry that it has to be such an extreme situation, because it is an extreme situation. And we've evolved to a very dire situation, both in terms of our Constitutional situation, but also in the way that we've let this issue be overtaken by a group of people that don't actually represent who we are as a people.
Kerri Kelly: Which seems to be a theme in our country, that we've been asleep at the wheel, right? And since 2016, nothing new is happening. The veil has been lifted and we're actually finally seeing it and being, I think, shook to wokeness. That this is happening and this has been happening, and as you just mentioned, a lot of this strategy has been seeded over time and I think what we're just seeing is now the snowball effect. And it is really a snowball, right? We're seeing the most aggressive abortion bans since Roe, which it feels like it's sweeping the states like a contagion, quite frankly. Georgia, Alabama, Missouri, Ohio. I think eight states in total have passed bills in 2019 so far. Is that right? Is it eight or nine?
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. But there's also been 30 restrictive bills that have passed in the last year. These are not new. There's been thousands. Thousands that have been introduced, enacted in one House or another. Some have been actually passed. These include restrictions like mandatory ultrasounds, waiting periods, just making it more difficult for people to access reproductive healthcare services. It's been happening over the past couple of decades, so for me it's-
Kerri Kelly: How many states have some kind of restriction that's sort of waiting on Roe?
Heidi Sieck: Right. So the scariest states are six states ... and it used to be five, and now we've had one more pass what are called trigger laws, meaning they're pieces of legislation that are sitting on the books in the states, that if Roe is overturned, abortion will be immediately illegal and there are very, very punitive punishment to people ... women, people who provide abortions in those states. The one that's the scariest to me is a trigger law that was passed in 2006 ... that's 2006 ... in Louisiana, which says ten days after Roe v. Wade is overturned, abortion will become illegal in Louisiana. The punishment is a felony conviction to someone providing an abortion or assisting an abortion that includes a $100,000 fine and 10-year mandatory hard labor camp. And the state legislature in Louisiana, in 2006, removed the exception for rape or incest that was part of the templated legislation that had been provided by the conservative infrastructure. So that has been on the books for 13 years.
Kerri Kelly: And now we're seeing more of those kinds of bills actually pass.
Heidi Sieck: Correct.
Kerri Kelly: You actually broke this down brilliantly in your blog/manifesto. For those of you that are listening, this is going to be included. It'll be clickable in the podcast. But I just want to run through this list that you gave us, because it really does demonstrate a very thought through strategy over time to prepare states for the overturn of Roe v. Wade.
Kerri Kelly: So we have nine states that have retained their unenforced pre-Roe abortion bans. We have the six states that you just mentioned that have post-Roe laws to ban abortions that would be triggered the moment Roe is overturned. Five states have unconstitutional post-Roe restrictions that are currently blocked by courts but could be brought back in effect if Roe is in fact overturned. Seven states have laws that express the intent to restrict the right to legal abortion to the maximum extent permitted by US Supreme Court in the absence of Roe. And then you have this other bullet on here which blew my mind, which is that women in the US are currently serving time in jail for inducing miscarriages.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. There's a story of a woman named Purvi Patel. She was 26 years old and I think she was 23, 24 weeks pregnant, induced a miscarriage in Indiana. She was charged with murder. She served 18 months in jail with a 20-year sentence, and that was courtesy of Governor Mike Pence and the state legislature of Indiana. And I think one of the things that's most important to understand is that that happened in 2016 in the United States of America.
Kerri Kelly: This isn't just maybe possibly in the future. This is already happened.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah, this happened and it is happening. And so when we think about the structure of our political system, this is not new. So that's something to think about. I think the most important point is that 57% of the country currently lives in a state that's hostile or not supportive of their reproductive freedom. So that means that depending on where-
Kerri Kelly: Even though 70% of Americans believe in abortion rights.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. So that means depending on where you live ... so much is contingent upon your zip code. Depending on where you live, you may or may not have reproductive freedom now. That's where we see these total abortion bans, we see these six-week bans. And the fact of the matter is, women in these particular states ... or I should also say ... we want to include our transgender people in this conversation because access to reproductive freedom and health services are so important to trans people ... that access to families, it's detrimentally limited in our country currently.
Kerri Kelly: And yet abortion is still legal.
Heidi Sieck: Well, it's constitutionally protected.
Kerri Kelly: So can you explain the difference between the two? Because I do think people are getting confused between where it stands. And then I also would be curious around, like, how do people find out, based on their zip code, what the law is in fact?
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. We know that Roe v. Wade does constitutionally protect abortion, but subsequent Supreme Court decisions, particularly Casey v. Planned Parenthood decided in 1992, does allow for certain limitations, and that's been really what's opened the floodgates for states to put limitations on access and what the costs-
Kerri Kelly: And they deferred those limitations to states.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. And so lots of state legislatures have been creating barriers to access. Those waiting periods, requiring an abortion clinic to have certain levels of ... like be at the standard of a surgery center, that require them to shut down, to require doctors to have admitting privileges, it's all just a strategy to limit access and that's been happening since 1992, actually. So access has been limited in these states, and it's been a state issue.
Heidi Sieck: Now that Roe v. Wade is at risk ... and what we need to understand is this abortion ban in Alabama was never intended to be implemented. Never. And the six-week ban in Georgia and the other bans have never intended to be implemented because they are unconstitutional on their face, under the context of Roe. So these were strategies by the anti-choice minority infrastructure to directly try to overturn Roe in the Supreme Court. They are emboldened by the fact that we have now a Supreme Court ... after the confirmation of the political operative Brett Kavanaugh ... a Supreme Court that is amenable to the overturn of Roe v. Wade. So the acceleration of these pieces of legislation are a strategy to-
Kerri Kelly: To force a case.
Heidi Sieck: To force a case to the Supreme Court. Now here's the really scary part. There are already 20 cases that are making their way through the federal court systems to be considered to reach a place where they can be considered by the Supreme Court. I say this very respectfully and also without any kind of filter, that it is very likely that we will lose Roe v. Wade possibly soon, but probably by next June.
Kerri Kelly: Because of the pipeline of cases that are in line?
Heidi Sieck: And the fact that Brett Kavanaugh is sitting on the Court. A lot of folks in the reproductive rights movement aren't willing to make that statement so clearly, and a lot of folks don't want to believe it's true. They want to say things like, "Oh, John Roberts will never allow that to happen," or, "They won't do it in 2020," or, "That's just not possible," or they'll just chip away. But there's some indications that give us quite a prediction that that is in fact the strategy. So we really have to take a moment-
Kerri Kelly: That seems real to me.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. We have to take a moment and just be like, "Okay. This is really happening." And I say this from a place of reverence, as a person that's been watching the unfolding of this system for 30 years in a place from inside the system and inside communities that haven't had access and watching these state legislatures, on the floor of these state legislatures, and also being present for the confirmation of Brett Kavanaugh. You and I were there together. We knew what we were fighting for.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah, that's why this doesn't surprise me. It felt like this was at stake when we laid our bodies down on the floor of the Hart Building.
Heidi Sieck: That's right.
Kerri Kelly: And when we cried our eyes out when he was confirmed.
Heidi Sieck: That's right.
Kerri Kelly: We knew that this was hanging in the balance. Not just our dignity, but actually control of our bodies.
Heidi Sieck: That's right. And it was so much more than his allegations of sexual assault from Dr. Ford. It was that we knew ... those of us who'd been watching the system and marginalized people and people who did live in places that didn't have access to reproductive healthcare services and had seen the transformation of our access over the course of the past few decades ... we all showed up at the Senate Judiciary Committee to protest this because we were expressing our lived experience. And this was before we even knew about the sexual assault allegations of this man.
Heidi Sieck: I think what was so frustrating is that we could see it. Just that first day, I remember when I walked into the Senate Judiciary Committee hearing, I was the first member of the public that walked in that room that day and I got that first ticket and I was the third person to get arrested, and we walked in and I saw Chairman Grassley and I saw Jeff Sessions and I saw Brett Kavanaugh walk in and I saw this small group of men who were hell bent on coalescing power and taking our rights away, and surrounding them were all of the women and the ...
Heidi Sieck: ... And surrounding them were all the women, and the senators that were there, the women senators, and the people in the room, and the press. And none of us wanted what they were determined to do, but they were determined to win and I knew that it was an uphill battle for us and that we would have to do whatever it takes. And that's why we fought so hard, and that's why we're where we are.
Kerri Kelly: So we deserve to be outraged about what's happening at the state level, but we really need to keep our eye on the prize, right. We really need to understand that these are tactics, to force a decision on Roe, and so what does that mean, how do we as a movement, prepare ourselves for defending Roe, for what's coming?
Heidi Sieck: Yeah, that's a deep question. Of course, in 2016, I brought all of my passion and fury together to create the platform that I am so honored to be co-founder of, which is vote per choice. So my focus obviously is, based on the strategy that I am hopeful will help. Which is, we have to honor the fact that Roe is at stake, we have to honor the fact that the contagion as you said, has happened in the States. We also have to honor those stories of women like Priva Patel who came up against elected offices like Sheriff or City Council or Public Defender or District attorney or a Judge, that thought it was appropriate for her to be put into jail, for making a decision about how to decide the trajectory of her future. That we have to honor the fact that the work is actually in local and state elected offices. That these are the people that have decided to make these decisions for us, and they are representing the minority people. So for me, I believe, our focus has to be on electing the right people, pro choice people everywhere.
Heidi Sieck: And the joy of it, this is the joy and the hope of it, is that because we are a pro choice nation, because people are waking up, because Republican women and independent women and even all the men are realizing that this is crazy, what's happening, legally and legislatively. That folks are open to electing pro choice candidates in any election everywhere. From school board to Senate, from PTA to president, we all have to be focusing on those elections.
Kerri Kelly: And your vote pro choice guide is just the most, I think badass voters guide out there. It runs all the way down the ballot, and it tells you everything you need to know about every elected office possible, I don't know how you pulled that off, but it is one of the most, I think thorough resources out there. For not just choosing a ballot, but for actually making really responsible choices, all the way down the ballot and we're not seeing the impact of actually not voting down the ballot, whether it's because we don't know or we're too busy or it's inconvenient or we're conflicted, we're paying the price now. And Stacey Abrams even just said recently that, "Bad policies like the forced pregnancy bill, is a direct result of voter suppression." She was talking about Georgia. And I'm thinking, if you look at all of the states that are passing these bills right, some of them have the highest rates of voter suppression, and some of them have the lowest rates, by the way, of women in power.
Heidi Sieck: Yes and here's what we have to realize. Again, going back to my experience in Nebraska, the anti-choice minority and the conservative movement have invested in these races, in leadership development, pipeline development, and elections at the local level for decades. They've been doing this for roughly 30 years, about the time I started, serendipitously. And so we are up against ... we're behind, we're behind in our investment. But what's great is that, that we have actually all the resource, we have the humans, we have the people, we have the experiences. One in four women will choose to terminate a pregnancy, two thirds of those are mothers, that doesn't matter what's your political affiliation is. So we have all the opportunity to be able to leverage these situations and these resources into success.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah, and we are seeing some good news right? We're seeing good news out of Oregon, we're seeing good news out of Maine, we're seeing good news out of Vermont, we're seeing good news out of Nevada, like the female run legislature, like female run states are actually in fact, turning out really progressive bills.
Heidi Sieck: Totally, and that's what so important. So let's get super strategic now. So everybody's thinking about 2020 and they're all distracted by the thousands of candidates that seem to be running.
Kerri Kelly: The five thousand presidential candidates.
Heidi Sieck: And it's nice, because-
Kerri Kelly: I think 20 more just signed up today.
Heidi Sieck: I know. It's nice because all of these candidates are talking about absolutely everything we need to talk about, because they're all trying to find different places to talk about whatever issues that they can differentiate themselves from. We've got Cory Booker really calling on men to become repro justice advocates and we've got Elizabeth Warren outlining a plan on reproductive rights-
Kerri Kelly: She's got a plan.
Heidi Sieck: She has got a great plan. We've got Kirsten Gillibrand, here's our righteous feminist, she's doing her thing and it's great. You got Pete Buttigieg who is on Fox, making good points about what it means to be an ally, great right, this is great. But guess what? In 2019, there are some critical elections, we've got Kentucky has statewide elections, we've got Louisiana, who has their state legislative elections, we've got Mississippi also, state legislative elections, we got Virginia, which we have to take Virginia, we have to flip the Senate, we got to pass clearly there. It's so exciting, we've got New Jersey, but it's always good to let progressive champions in New Jersey, sure always good. And you've got thousands and thousands of municipal races happening across the country.
Heidi Sieck: So right now, in 2019, there are elections every single week, where we're looking at the Kansas city Missouri City Council races are in a few weeks, we've got Denver happening in a few weeks, we've got Memphis Tennessee is happening next month. It's these critical races that actually don't take a lot of money or a lot of time. And we can have significant impact by diverting some resources to these places, because the pro choice majority is activated-
Kerri Kelly: On the ground.
Heidi Sieck: Our system is not necessarily ready to leverage that power.
Kerri Kelly: Well, the media has some role in that too right? All we see is presidential rhetoric, presidential this, presidential that. When in fact, there are really critical decisions being made-
Heidi Sieck: That's right.
Kerri Kelly: At the local level, that is why we're where we are, right now.
Heidi Sieck: And that's our future, that's where the success can happen, by electing great people and our key is just really allowing people to step into their positions of leadership and supporting that.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah, we're going to take a quick break and be right back with Heidi Sieck.
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Kerri Kelly: I want to talk about feminine leadership, because I feel like you're going there and you embody it. And after the tragic shooting in Christchurch, we got a glimpse of what that looks like, right with Jacinda Ardern, in the way that she responded with grace and empathy, but also in a way that she was so swift, in enacting action and passing gun control the law, I think, within a month, right. And Hillary Clinton once referred to women as having a responsibility gene, and I think, it's not surprising, right, that women have evolved into that, given how women have survived constant subjugation and inferiority, the ways in which we've always been relegated as the caregiver, and also the way in which over time we've accumulated so much wisdom and medicine around healing and learning lessons about how to cope. And I feel like that wisdom and that truth, you talked about truth before, is in fact making a come back, right?
Kerri Kelly: We are seeing now a real embodiment of feminine leadership in different countries, we're seeing it in the house, we're it at the State level in a lot of different ways. And it does feel like as I just mentioned before that, a lot of the states that are in fact passing progressive pro choice legislation, are led by women. Women in legislation, women governors. And so I'm just curious, what is different about feminine ... and I don't want to assume that it's just a women's body, but there is a quality of feminine leadership that feels like is breaking through the patriarchy, relentlessly, as you mentioned, sort of like “Forrest Gump” in your journey.
Kerri Kelly: I feel like it's the Forest Gump of feminine leadership, it's just trying desperately to break through and it does feel different and I'm just curious, as to what you think that looks like? What do we need to be aspiring to? What do we need to be embodying? How do we support one another? And calling forth, right that kind of leadership that can stand up fiercely to the leadership that we're seeing in the minority leadership that you mentioned, that's in the white patriarchy? That right now occupies so many of the houses of our government.
Heidi Sieck: There are two points that I would like to make, in response to that question. But first of all, do you think we're so old that folks are going to know what the Forest Gump of feminism really means?
Kerri Kelly: I don't know.
Heidi Sieck: Did anybody see that movie anymore? Forest Gump was a movie that Tom Hanks...
Kerri Kelly: And he just coming back.
Heidi Sieck: These really important historical moments and no one really knew his name, but he was there.
Kerri Kelly: And he survived.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah, and it was a critical part in the story of who he was, but also the connections and community that's what I reflect on. That there's so many people who have these lived experiences and have walked journeys. And our communities that are now stepping into leadership and that's really reflective of your question. So I want to answer your question historically, and then also talk about a certain type of framing for how we move forward. So historically we know, that the subjugation of women has been part of our culture, it's been thousands and thousands of years that sacred feminine or feminine energy has been a source of just oppression, brutality, the inquisition started in 1100, it was basically suppression of feminine, the connection of women to their nature, the witch trials, all of that. That is something that's been happening for thousands and thousands of years and millions and millions of women have died as a result of just expressing themselves. And being who they are, and expressing their connection to creation and creative energy.
Heidi Sieck: So that aspect of misogyny and suppression, underlies our culture and it is very much what we are seeing in as the energy of women rise, as we have after the Hillary Clinton's loss of her rightfully elected presidential campaign. We have the energy of women coming forward and saying, "I am going to take the lead, I'm going to embrace power." We have a new embodiment of authenticity, we have new freedom, we have women standing up and saying, "No." It's what we were doing at the Senate, where we were fighting Kavanaugh, and so this in a lot of ways is a backlash, there's always a backlash. As Rebecca Traister says, "We've been in the backlash for decades and so we have to honor that this is nothing new." And it does have a powerful religious connotation to it. Most of the anti-choice minority is fueled by concepts that the church is continuing to perpetuate. And that is something that has not changed in thousands of years.
Heidi Sieck: So we have to honor that, but also really honor that this time in our lives, and this time in our society is allowing us to see the truth. So how fascinating it is to be in this time in our democracy, where we are seeing what's true. And we are seeing the United States Constitution is being taxed and tested beyond it's 229 years, because the Constitution itself was written for white men to control people and power. So it's even being pressed, against feminine energy and leadership. So for me, it is continuing to honor the truth that this is us women, feminine aspects of leadership, collaboration, connection, systemic understanding, connection to nature, connection to community and family, greater understanding of what we might need to heal. It goes completely against the systems of power that are currently in place and it's going to be hard to break. So it feels awful, it feels terrible because it is like putting two operating systems against each other.
Heidi Sieck: So we have to just tell the truth about that and do what we can to hold ourselves in healing space, that's why I so value CTZN Well's work and the work here on this Podcast and everything that you have done, because you've connected those two things so deeply. But the second frame that I just want to bring up here is, the concept of reproductive justice. This is a very special frame, that I want to make sure to honor. Because people talk about abortion and they think about reproductive health and reproductive rights and they kind of released what works together, but the concept of reproductive justice was actually developed by black women, women of color in their communities. Where they were saying, "This is not just about abortion rights, this is about creating communities that are healthy, where people can thrive and creating communities that are healthy, where there is clean water and access to education and we have living wages and our bodies are healthy."
Heidi Sieck: And it's much more than just abortion and birth control, while that's a part of it, the concept of reproductive justice is about wellbeing. And so when we use these terms of reproductive rights, health, abortion access, all of that, we want to honor the reproductive justice is actually the frame that is foundational in nature about everything we're talking about.
Kerri Kelly: It's intersectional.
Heidi Sieck: Yes and what I am so frustrated about over the course of the last 30 years or just generally in the reproductive rights movement and the political movement, they've put abortion over in this corner, it's a women's issue or it's those single issue people, or we can't talk about it, or it's some sort of stigmatized thing or there's shame around sex and men don't want to be involved. And it's over here, with the planned parent hoods of the world right, when in fact, the concept of reproductive justice and what I like to use, the term reproductive freedom, is a foundational issue of freedom and it's a foundational issue of economic justice and it's a foundational issue of treating women and trans people as human beings, and allowing us all to live in a thriving way, toward our own personal authentic wellbeing. And that's what we're talking about, how can we bring that truth together.
Kerri Kelly: Mm-hmm (affirmative), I love that. And I believe in the interdependence of these issues.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah, so we need the Democratic Party, we need every elected office, we need anybody who calls themselves a democrat, we need anyone who calls themselves a progressive, to start owning this. Don't say, "Oh that abortion issue, oh I'm personally pro life." But no, pro life is not a word, it is not. This is about freedom, this is about respect, this is about bringing the concept of reproductive freedom into a foundational issue, this is about really standing for the wellbeing of all the people.
Kerri Kelly: But it does feel and I agree with you. But it does feel, because you were talking about the risk of it being isolated and so while I agree with your framing, it does feel isolated in who's showing up for this issue. I didn't see a lot of men marching yesterday, right and reproductive rights is an everyone issue, right bringing fertility and bringing life into the world or not, impacts the whole family. And so I'm just curious about that, because ... And I remember this with Cavener too, I remember talking to you about this in fact, and being like, "Where's everyone else?" Right, where are all the men that drank beer with Cavener, why aren't they here? All the men in my life, are like, "I'm with you, in solidarity." And I'm like, "No, why aren't you with me here in your body, on your feet, with your first in the air?"
Kerri Kelly: And so I'm curious about that, why this issue continues to be an issue that women only take responsibility for, whether that's birth control or fertility, and then we have to fight for it, we have to demand it for ourselves. We have to tell these gut wrenching stories, every time our dignity is threatened, so that we can prove that we are human, and we're worthy of human rights, so I hear what you're saying and I feel conflicted. Because it does feel like, people have opted out of the conversation, because it doesn't feel like it's their problem.
Heidi Sieck: Right. Well, there's no simple answer to this, obviously we're talking about systemic transformation and men are 100% responsible for all unintended pregnancies.
Kerri Kelly: 100% in fact?
Heidi Sieck: Yeah, so we should take a moment on this and this conversation to call in the men, please join us. You are now part of the reproductive rights movement and reproductive justice movement. Although reproductive justice is a movement of women of color, so use the term accurately.
Kerri Kelly: But come to the table.
Heidi Sieck: Come to us.
Kerri Kelly: Come on in, we need you.
Heidi Sieck: Oh yes.
Kerri Kelly: Because the difference between the 70% of pro choice nation that you're naming and the very few people that are marching and fighting, is just that I think. I'm not saying, it's about men, but I'm saying it's about the people who are showing up and not showing up. It's not enough to be like, "I'm for this."
Heidi Sieck: Right.
Kerri Kelly: So there's a ... we can end like-
Heidi Sieck: Right. Um. So, there's a, we can analyze the problem a little bit and I'm going to go back to the strategy about pro-choice which is a lot of it is about education. How many of us were fully educated about our sexual health and well-being? How many of us across the country. We have abstinence only education in some of these states.
Heidi Sieck: There are so many people and then that actually don't know how, how women's bodies work. We're seeing it in the state legislatures.
Heidi Sieck: These folks don't have a clue-
Kerri Kelly: Yeah, and we-
Heidi Sieck: ... what pregnancy actually is.
Kerri Kelly: And we don't want the Coulter to teach them.
Heidi Sieck: Oh, my goodness right? And, um, access, all the access to porn is not the way to learn about these things, so, elect pro-choice school board members-
Kerri Kelly: Yeah.
Heidi Sieck: ... that are willing to put policies into place-
Kerri Kelly: That's right.
Heidi Sieck: ... to have comprehensive sexuality education, so that kids are actually understanding how bodies work.
Kerri Kelly: That's right.
Heidi Sieck: So. Systemic change for sure.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah.
Heidi Sieck: But we also have to address the symptom as well as the foundation of the disease. Please men, welcome. We welcome you.
Kerri Kelly: (laughs).
Heidi Sieck: You are a part of this, too. We also have to take responsibility for we haven't actually created engagement channels at that much.
Kerri Kelly: And there is a men's pro-choice, right?
Heidi Sieck: Oh, yes, um, Men For Choice has just launching-
Kerri Kelly: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Heidi Sieck: ... their national work out of Chicago. They're a wonderful organization. There are other organizations too, but they're doing some of the more direct work that's-
Kerri Kelly: The systemic work, yeah.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. So it's really quite extraordinary. I, I'm particularly fond of them. We're partners with them.
Kerri Kelly: Awesome.
Heidi Sieck: Um, but we, we do welcome, we do welcome the men and I will take responsibility for the fact that the reproductive rights movement was really focused on people who prioritized abortion. We were not talking to the masses to pro-choice nation for many, many years, because we were just working with our people that prioritize these issues.
Kerri Kelly: Right.
Heidi Sieck: And so now, we, that's what we ... It's to our detriment that we did this. Um, so, we welcome you now and we are happy to, um, have your partnership and, um, please write lots of checks. (laughs).
Kerri Kelly: (laughs). I just wanted to make sure everyone heard that. Please write lots of checks.
Heidi Sieck: Yes. To your local reproductive justice organizations, Men For Choice, on national funds.
Kerri Kelly: Vote pro-choice.
Heidi Sieck: Local abortion funds, um.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah. Support your local candidates.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah, locals. Yeah, Senate. Get involved in your state legislative candidates, uh, that will change everything.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah. So I want to, um, you mentioned healing on, and I, you know, and we're like an organization that's standing at the intersection of healing and politics so I definitely want to touch on that. Um, and there has been some really powerful healing I think, um, over the last couple years in the Me Too, um, Movement. Thank you Tyranna Burke in the Why I Didn't Report Movement, in the Kavanaugh Experience, um, and most recently in the, uh, You Know Me and the I Am One In Four, in the Shout Your Abortion.
Kerri Kelly: Um, there's been a lot of healing, and it's been hard. You and I were at the Kavanaugh, um, you know, protests together listening to like story, after story, after story, and it was brutal. Um.
Heidi Sieck: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kerri Kelly: For the people telling the stories-
Heidi Sieck: It was terrible.
Kerri Kelly: ... it was hard to hear. Um, it brought up all my shit, um, and I know yours too, and so, um, and so I know there's healing that, and I, and I think it's hard, um, but you know, it does feel like, and, and I had an abortion when I was 20. Um, and I, you know, I'm super transparent, especially on this podcast. I pretty much said all the things, but I, I rarely tell my story about abortion. I, I have rarely spoken it to, um, people, very few people in my life know about it, and I've never really spoken about it publicly until now apparently.
Kerri Kelly: And, um, and I just, I'm curious about that. Like, what, what is the stigma around abortion that makes it so hard to talk about. And for me, harder to talk about than sexual assault, harder to talk about. I mean, really, then rape, um, is it shame? Is it, um, you know, catholic fucked-up, (laughs).
Heidi Sieck: (laughs).
Kerri Kelly: ... indoctrination? I don't know. I'm just curious what your thoughts are around that. Um, and the ways perhaps that, I know there's an incredible organization called Exhale. They basically built like a culture of community care around people who have had an abortion to really hold space for story.
Kerri Kelly: Do you know this organization?
Heidi Sieck: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kerri Kelly: Yeah. To hold space for story and for support and for community care, like that's basically what they exist for, and I think they're called exhale pro-voice-
Heidi Sieck: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kerri Kelly: ... I think it's the name of, of the organization, and so I'm just curious about like your, your thoughts around why is it so hard ... for people-
Heidi Sieck: Yeah.
Kerri Kelly: ... to come clean around abortion, and then what are the ways in which we can turn towards one another, so that not just so that we can like do whatever healing is needed, but so that we can also like fiercely be advocating for choice? Fiercely be advocating for control of our bodies. Fiercely be advocating for the way in which we, um, make decisions about family planning.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. Yeah these are some deep, deep issues, so, um, it interestingly, like you, this story of our sexual assaults or the experiences that we've had in that regard are somewhat easier to tell, right?
Kerri Kelly: Yeah, what is that?
Heidi Sieck: I'm curiously, right? Um, but, okay. So we know for sure that there's a lot of cultural shame around sexuality. We know that the suppression of women's sexuality is a thousands of year issue. Um, we know that we don't know anything about our bodies, because our sex ed is terrible-
Kerri Kelly: Right.
Heidi Sieck: ... in this country
Kerri Kelly: We've been objectified.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. This baseline, the baseline is not good, and it doesn't set up authenticity for the feminine physical experience. It just doesn't. And so, one in four women have chosen to terminate a pregnancy before the age of 45, and two-thirds of those are mothers.
Kerri Kelly: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Heidi Sieck: But what's not in there is according to the national institute for reproductive health, 87% of those people do not regret their choice.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah, I don't regret it.
Heidi Sieck: So, what's that about right?
Kerri Kelly: Yeah.
Heidi Sieck: So,
Kerri Kelly: Right.
Heidi Sieck: Where is the power in our decision? And it is the suppression of not only our agency, and I think, um, there was an incredible article that was in the ... I think it was the nation this week, written by Laurie Penney.
Kerri Kelly: Oh, my God! The New Republic.
Heidi Sieck: The New Republic.
Kerri Kelly: She's my favorite writer of all time. I just want to say that out loud.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. The criminalization of women's bodies all about conservative male power. That women, as they wake up into their agency, the sexual power, the sexual expression of feminine energy is transformative. You know, if you think about it, it's why the catholic church exists, and it's the largest non-profit organization on the planet, is to suppress the creative power of God. You know?
Heidi Sieck: And what we're talking about is really a relationship of creative energy. And it's really intense. And so for us to own our decisions, to own our freedom, is to completely dis-, disrupt systems of power and so for many it's ... I personally ... I mean, I've had, I also had an abortion. I was 31 years old. I'd just gotten out of a divorce. My life was chaotic. I didn't take my birth control pills on time. I accidentally got pregnant, um, with a partner that I didn't want to be a co-parent with, and I have no regrets whatsoever.
Kerri Kelly: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Heidi Sieck: And I'm so grateful for that decision. I lived in San Francisco. It was totally covered. No problem, and, um, I'm so grateful for that decision, that choice, that option. And I decided, not to, that I, it wasn't my path to have children and, and oh, my God, how grateful I am that I've had that option. That I can live a life of vibrancy and service.
Heidi Sieck: And so many people depending on where they live do not have that option and I am-
Kerri Kelly: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Heidi Sieck: ... um, and how scary that must be for men in power who, um, know that I'm out there.
Kerri Kelly: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Heidi Sieck: (laughs).
Kerri Kelly: I would be scared of you. I would be scared of you. I think there's something really though like important about what you said around agency and, and the way in which we've been taught to not trust ourselves.
Heidi Sieck: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kerri Kelly: To not trust our bodies.
Heidi Sieck: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kerri Kelly: To not trust ... to not love our bodies.
Heidi Sieck: Well, I think that's exactly right.
Kerri Kelly: Right. And to not trust our choices, and then have that get sort of somehow hooked in right? To a choice that we make for all of the right reasons. Right??
Heidi Sieck: That's right.
Kerri Kelly: For the health and well-being of ourselves and for all of the people that we're in relationship with.
Heidi Sieck: That's right.
Kerri Kelly: And yet that indoctrination of like we're not worthy of making that choice for ourselves and we're seeing that literally replicated in these laws. Like, you don't get to choose.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah.
Kerri Kelly: Um, how undignified-
Heidi Sieck: And what-
Kerri Kelly: ... we believe that. We buy into that.
Heidi Sieck: Totally. And the terrifying nature of the feminine sexual force. That is ... We see it across the country, right? You know, like we were talking earlier, Alabama's laws are actually more suppressive than Saudi Arabia.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah, that's right.
Heidi Sieck: But, there are countries that are wrapping women in burkas.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah.
Heidi Sieck: Why? Because the terrifying power of the feminine sexual creative energy, um, that can be manifested through women identify people, transgender people, um, and we know that that is just a, a force of chaos, I suppose, for people in power. And that how important it is for us to create connection to our own community well-being, but also connections with each other.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah.
Heidi Sieck: Like how can I hold space for you to tell your story in a way that's filled with love and authenticity. How can we do that for others? How can we bring men into that conversation and them saying I benefited from my partner choosing to not have another child. Or, thank God my girlfriend ten years ago decided to make a different choice because I was free to pursue my dreams.
Kerri Kelly: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Heidi Sieck: You know, men are, are equally, um-
Kerri Kelly: Impacted.
Heidi Sieck: ... are legally impacted and they benefit from reproductive freedom. And it's, um, it's really, it's really a unique place that we're in right now that we're seeing the transformation of the United States Constitution. We're seeing the transformation of what it means to be a leader, and we're seeing the wounds of our communities and history manifest themselves right now, and I guess the question we have to ask ourselves is what are we capable of holding the space for and what are we going to do about it?
Kerri Kelly: Well, and I think also, you know, I'm thinking about Adrian Murray Brown and pleasure activism, and how she's really, I think, challenging and inspiring us to reach further. Um, right to like reach for pleasure, and Jill Filipovich wrote a great book called H Spot, which is really about like, you know, just aiming for equality is just so fucking baseline.
Kerri Kelly: Like that's the bare minimum. Like why can't we aim for fulfillment? Why can't we aim for pleasure? You know? An ecstatic feeling and God forbid, we actually did in fact name and clean those things for ourselves, then the patriarchy would really freak out.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah.
Kerri Kelly: Um, so I do think-
Heidi Sieck: And I think we also have to reclaim God.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah.
Heidi Sieck: And grace.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah.
Heidi Sieck: Okay, because what a lot of what we hear in the anti-abortion and the anti-choice movement is that they're having these struggles with God.
Kerri Kelly: Right.
Heidi Sieck: I was just talking to someone from Planned Parenthood who working on a Mississippi ballot initiative back in 2011, and she said these, these, these people who considered themselves, I'm going to put this in quotes, pro-life, were terrified to vote against a, uh, an abortion ban ballot initiative, because they didn't want God to know.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah, they'd be damned.
Heidi Sieck: And so-
Kerri Kelly: And that's the church.
Heidi Sieck: This is what we're dealing with.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah.
Heidi Sieck: And so, how can we reclaim our connection to ourselves and our own spiritual lives that we may heal and be able to understand what freedom really means too?
Kerri Kelly: Well, I totally resonate with that because you know, I can see how even intellectually I don't buy in to that. I've been indoctrinated into that with all of my catholic upbringing.
Heidi Sieck: (laughs).
Kerri Kelly: So, like what part of me was like, you're going to hell. You know?
Heidi Sieck: Right.
Kerri Kelly: What part of me was like, you know, you know, you, you're wrong, you know? Um, how dare you? And, and what part of me believed that? So, I think that's right. Like how do we reclaim for ourselves, um, a sense of sacred, right? A sense of divinity, a sense of, of, of God and grace that allows us to really be at peace-
Heidi Sieck: Yeah.
Kerri Kelly: ... with all of the decisions we've made and, with, with who we are? You know? Just as are. Exactly as we are? Um, and it's so funny, because, I, I really think that, um, you know, faith plays such a big part in healing. Um, I don't-
Heidi Sieck: Oh, yes.
Kerri Kelly: I don't think we exclude God in that conversation.
Heidi Sieck: No, and how grateful we are for the faith leaders that are part of this movement.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah.
Heidi Sieck: You know, Jesus said the kingdom of God is within you, and the choices that we make for our lives and the way that we relate to each other is from that place of inner love and peace inside of ourselves, and the bible just says nothing about abortion.
Kerri Kelly: That's right.
Heidi Sieck: It talks about life beginning at breath. And, and, and so allowing the consent of, of evangelical religion to own the, the sacred truth of what the trajectory of our lives should be is just an inappropriate use of these really powerful sacred processes.
Kerri Kelly: And it's a lie.
Heidi Sieck: And it's not true.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah.
Heidi Sieck: Back to truth.
Kerri Kelly: It's not true. It's not true. It's not true. So, you know, this is why I definitely appreciate your podcast so much-
Heidi Sieck: (laughs).
Kerri Kelly: ... and the work that you do because you allow this space to connect. The United States Constitution with the transformation of our relationship-
Heidi Sieck: Our souls.
Kerri Kelly: ... our sexuality and grace.
Heidi Sieck: (laughs). Well listen, it's also why I seek out leadership like yours-
Kerri Kelly: (laughs).
Heidi Sieck: ... because I know that you're not just leading from your mind, you're leading from your heart and you are constantly meaning making. Um, around like, what's right, um, what's moral, um, what's good for everyone, what's just, um, what am I-
Kerri Kelly: That's true.
Heidi Sieck: What's true?
Kerri Kelly: No, what's true. What's true.
Heidi Sieck: What am I responsible for? You know, what are we all responsible for? I mean that's sort of like that ... those are the questions we're asking here and you embody that I think in, in everything you do. Um, all right. Here's my last question for you. And then we're going to wrap it.
Kerri Kelly: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Heidi Sieck: And it's just around the idea of sisterhood.
Kerri Kelly: Mn. (neutral).
Heidi Sieck: Um, and, I think it's a part of healing, and I also think it's the part of how we organize, um, and how we fight, and how we love. (laughs). Um, but, you know, what, how do we, what, what is your vision for how we get together? Um, for how we come together? Um, to, to reclaim, right? Our dignity? To reclaim our rights? Um, to reclaim the White House? (laughs).
Kerri Kelly: Oh.
Heidi Sieck: But for real, like all of that feels connected to me. Right? Um, you know what is your vision for how we work together?
Kerri Kelly: Well, this is going to be hard, because it's going to require us to admit some defeat. So here we are in the, in 2019 facing the, the stress of the United States Constitution, kind of not working anymore, and we've got the stress of the systems of power that we know to be true.
Kerri Kelly: We also have the stress of abortion rights and reproductive freedom in the United States of America, a threat as it never has been before, and so if we are not willing to step back and say wow! Maybe we should rethink our strategy? We've got a real problem.
Heidi Sieck: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kerri Kelly: So, it's going to be tough. And so I think sisterhood needs that we are going to have to be present with each other, have some very difficult conversations about what's true and we have to open our arms and our heart to be in community with each other in a way that is more expansive than ever before. And that might mean that we include into the reproductive, well that has to mean, that we include into the reproductive rights movement other organizations that have not been part of the reproductive rights movement-
Heidi Sieck: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kerri Kelly: ... before. So, that includes women who have never engaged, and men who have never engaged in this issue.
Heidi Sieck: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kerri Kelly: It includes really framing reproductive justice and bringing in immigration activists, and environmental activists, and being present for those movements. We're talking the most intersectional engagement ever.
Heidi Sieck: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kerri Kelly: So, it's building relationships. It's conversations with people that we might not have ever worked with before. And, it's just being in community and telling the truth.
Heidi Sieck: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Kerri Kelly: We've got to start telling our stories.
Heidi Sieck: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kerri Kelly: And that's what I'm committed to doing.
Heidi Sieck: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kerri Kelly: Now, again, strategically, I want us all to be electing down ballot pro-choice champions, particularly women of color in every re-election everywhere as much as possible. I think that's a great strategy. And that's what I'm hoping we're all going to be doing and that's what the work that I do is about. But, you know, I'm also spending a lot of time just having conversations with people and organizers and at organizations that I may have not had a conversation with before.
Heidi Sieck: And I would say that those two things are not separate. Like-
Kerri Kelly: No.
Heidi Sieck: ... your, your strategy to, to reclaim the down ballot feels as spiritual to me (laughs) as any craziest conversation is, um, and I think the, the more we start seeing, like political strategy as spiritual strategy, the better off that we're going to be. These are not isolated or separate. It's not spirit on the side in politics. You know, over here.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah.
Heidi Sieck: It's like these things are, like what, like what's at stake is our spirit, is our humanity.
Kerri Kelly: Yeah.
Heidi Sieck: Is our dignity and politics and strategy and community and healing is the way we get there. And so I see all of them kind of, you know.
Kerri Kelly: It's going to take some-
Heidi Sieck: Coagulating.
Kerri Kelly: ... it's going to also take some humility saying, oh wow, we messed that up. So that's -
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. It's a capacity to, to fail.
Kerri Kelly: ... going to be hard. That's going to be hard.
Heidi Sieck: Yeah. I think that's right. Like I think we need to build some muscle around courage, um, the capacity to fail, to know that we're not going to win everything, um, the capacity to grieve the things that don't, aren't working anymore. Yeah.
Kerri Kelly: Or stepping back and saying wow! That didn't work. What do you think I should have done?
Heidi Sieck: Yeah, that's right.
Kerri Kelly: You should have done, or maybe we should re-think our strategy?
Heidi Sieck: Yeah.
Kerri Kelly: Or hey, funders?
Heidi Sieck: Maybe we should like think about-
Kerri Kelly: Yeah.
Heidi Sieck: ... putting money in a different way or a board of directors?
Kerri Kelly: Hm?
Heidi Sieck: No.
Kerri Kelly: I think we're going to have to go in a different direction. It's going to be hard. It's going to be hard.
Heidi Sieck: Curiosity.
Kerri Kelly: Um.
Heidi Sieck: Curiosity.
Kerri Kelly: Curiosity.
Heidi Sieck: Constant curiosity. And I think interrogation. You know?
Kerri Kelly: Yeah.
Heidi Sieck: Well, i just want to say, thank you for the your 30 years, 30, I'm not, I'm not trying to age you.
Kerri Kelly: I'm so old.
Heidi Sieck: (laughs). Ha, ha. But 30 years of service-
Kerri Kelly: (laughs).
Heidi Sieck: ... defending our bodies, defending our uteruses (laughs) ...
Kerri Kelly: (laughs).
Heidi Sieck: ... defending our reproductive rights. Um. Defending humanity and our families, and our community. I mean, that all feels part of that too. And for really, um, like just giving us direction, um, in, and meaning, um, and perspective in where we are and where we need to go.
Heidi Sieck: For all the listeners, we're going to include Heidi's manifesto slash blog. (laughs).
Kerri Kelly: (laughs).
Heidi Sieck: And all of the vote pro-choice, um, resources that y'all can connect to and benefit from and, um, we're going to hearing a lot more from you I think in the next couple months and certainly leading up to the election as we try to like navigate this path and hopefully retake our country and our, and our soul.
Kerri Kelly: It's going to be quite a journey. I'm delighted to be on it with you.
Heidi Sieck: Thank you. I love you.
Kerri Kelly: (laughs)
Heidi Sieck: See you soon.
Outro: While this podcast is coming to an end, our work in the world is just beginning. This week's Call To Action is to vote Pro-Choice. Download the guide at vote pro-choice dot US. And you can follow Heidi on Instagram at Heidi Speaks.
Outro: Special thanks to our producer Trevor Exter and DJ Dreads for the amazing soundtrack. You can check out his music at DJ Dreads dot com. And thank you for being here today. You can stay in the know and engaged by subscribing to our weekly newsletter Well Read at CTZN well dot org.
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